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6:26 am November 25, 2010
| Robert Horton
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I question whether there is any real need for marriages at all. Why shouldn't all persons be treated equally under the law just as though they are single? Religious ceremonies could be held by or for those who wish to have them, and civil contracts could be entered into by those who wish to make more secure arrangements, but otherwise let's keep religions and the law out of our relationships except to provide recourse if and when it becomes necessary to deal with abuses or enforce contracts. LOL
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9:34 am November 25, 2010
| Avistew
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Yeah, I'm starting to think that advantages given to married couples are unfair to begin with. I can see how the state would want to encourage it, the idea being stables households for kids if kids there are, but nowadays, lots of kids are born outside of a marriage and lots of marriages have no kids in them, so they can't be equated anymore.
I'm starting to think that marriage is an out of date institution (legally), and that ceremonies shouldn't have a legal ground… On the other hand I guess it makes it easier to share property when people separate, and stuff like that… But I don't think things like taxes being lower make sense. I think you sould be able to declare them per household regardless of the relationship between persons in your household.
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10:10 am November 29, 2010
| Robert Horton
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A closer reading of the CPAA draft position, and the responses and suggestions that have been offered by members and others, tends to convince me that I may be on the right track in questioning the continued relevance of marriage today.
If this possibility is conceded by the CPAA directors and members, my next question is: What shall we do now?
I see two possibilities:
(a) to continue to state the CPAA position “as is” and, if it succeeds in helping to have s.293 appealed and replaced, use that success as a stepping stone towards a further challenge: the repeal of some or all criminal laws regarding marriage, or
(b) to modify the CPAA position to expand it as a means towards the repeal of some or all criminal laws regarding marriage.
In either case the implications of such sweeping possibilities necessarily impact upon established political, economic and other social programs. I assume that considering those alternatives and their implications would, if allowed, shelve or delay the current trial indefinitely. However that might not be a bad position to take if this may lead towards a more beneficial, more comprehensive, result within a reasonable time frame.
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2:01 pm November 29, 2010
| jbash
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To be absolutely clear, this is 100 percent personal opinion, not speaking for the CPAA in any way.
What criminal laws regarding marriage do you have in mind?
The only two I know about are s.293, which we're already against, and s.290 (bigamy). 290 is poorly targeted for its purpose, but it seems to really be more about lying to somebody about how you're going to split property than anything else. It would be nice to do that in different words, but is it a priority? At first glance, 290 seems to prevent you from claiming to be in two monogamous marriages, not from being in a polyamorous one.
Repealing 293 and 290, or invalidating either or both of them under the Charter, wouldn't substantially change the status of marriage. All the various preferences people get for being mono-married would still be in place. The present case has no effect on that at all.
If you mean repealing all laws about marriage, I don't think we know if that's the right path or not, but I do know that we have zero, and I mean zero, chance of actually getting Parliament to do anything of the kind, so we're not even considering it.
There are good reasons for some of the marriage laws, anyway, especially around the way property gets split. And I don't think we want to take away, say, monogamous hospital visitation. We want to GET polyamorous hospital visitation. Way different.
We have a draft position that says monogamy and polyamory are equally valuable and should get equal treatment. If we adopt that position, it would imply the law should either recognize poly marriage, not recognize monogamous marriage, or maybe come up with some other way to give poly people the same advantages and disadvantages.
But would that be a big priority for us, compared to other, more specific, more realistic issues? And would we want to be primarily in the business of taking away something monogamous people have and like, rather than getting things we want and would like? I don't think so.
I, for one, think it would be hard to come up with an institution of polyamorous marriage that would both work administratively and be something a lot of poly people would actually want. Polys don't tend to like one size fits all arrangements. But I also think that before we completely discarded the notion, we should spend at least some time finding out if it could be done. We might find ourselves surprised if we actually tried it. But I think in fact we would fail.
If we could NOT come up with a form of marriage that was good for poly people, then I guess we would end up saying there should be some other way for poly people to get access to the benefits monogamous people get from being married, or conversely to avoid subsidizing monogamous people with benefits that poly people couldn't get. Conceivably we could even argue that marriage should be removed from the whole conceptual framework of a lot of institutions. We could then begin the decades long process of lobbying for that.
But right now we're trying to keep our constituents out of jail. We do NOT get to "delay or shelve the current trial". It will continue with or without us. I don't think we can make it moot, either; I doubt we can even get politicians to look at 293 until after the courts are done with it, let alone to look at it from a point of view sympathetic to ours… although we do think about ways to do that from time to time.
After decriminalization, we'll have plenty of time to worry about marriage equality, whatever form that might take. Right now, I think it's pretty irrelevant.
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3:49 pm November 29, 2010
| Robert Horton
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I'll be absolutely clear, too, as I'm also offering 100 percent personal opinion, not speaking with formal legal qualifications, although courses on legal issues were included in several of the programs I've taken. So thank you for clarifying the CPAA position as you see it and for the courtesy you've shown by giving me a full response.
You mention marriage laws, especially around the way property gets split and about hospital visitations. Please allow me to repeat what I've already said: “Religious ceremonies could be held by or for those who wish to have them, and civil contracts could be entered into by those who wish to make more secure arrangements.” Property, visitation, and any and all other legal differences between married and non married persons could surely be dealt with that way. However I fully agree that we probably “… have zero … chance of actually getting Parliament to do anything of the kind … ”, so I withdraw the alternative suggestions I offered.
And I concur that “… we could even argue that marriage should be removed from the whole conceptual framework of a lot of institutions. We could then begin the decades long process of lobbying for that.” That, too, does not seem to be a realistic position to take, as you've pointed out, although our politicians have apparently not been averse to making significant changes to the law to allow homosexuals to be married. But yes, that too is possibly quite irrelevant right now.
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5:52 pm December 8, 2010
| Robert Horton
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I'm sending you a copy of a post I made today to Polyamorous Percolations for your information.
……………………….
The section 293 trial introduces several intriguing questions. It seems to me that the key question to be resolved by the Court in this trial is, as noted by Kate Heartfield in her article in the Ottawa Citizen, one of freedom.
Whichever mode of governance we live under, we are said to live under law. Legal actions are de jure. Some laws are not always being enforced and so may come to be regarded as unenforceable, de facto. In a democracy laws are made, at least theoretically, when the government expresses the will of the majority of its citizens representatively. But even while countries may ostensibly be democratic or secular, in fact some of their laws may be made as though they were under a different form of government, such as an oligarchy or theocracy. So far, no argument.
In this trial one of our freedoms hinges upon how the Court interprets the use of the term marriage as used in the Criminal Code. Are all forms of multiple sexual relationships deemed to be marriages and so illegal, or only some of them? Apparently yes, in Canada. The laws on polygamy and bigamy are being directed primarily at the FLDS Church and its community in Bountiful. Polygamy there is an accepted, recommended doctrine of FLDS Mormon faith under certain conditions and is often being practiced.
Does that mean that de facto may sometimes trump de jure? Do religious and other ideological doctrines sometimes determine issues? Yes, of course. Are we a secular, democratic country or what? How does the Court define marriage and how does it distinguish between marriage and other forms of multiple sexual relationships? If marriage is not to be considered an outdated practice, or one that is so entrenched that it is felt to be untouchable, then in what ways do we, as opposed to the powers-that-be, wish the Court to recommend to our governments that section 293 be modified?
If the intent is to try to prevent harm from coming to men, women, and children as a direct consequence of multiple sexual relationships, and if we assume that section 293 and other laws do not adequately address that issue, then in what ways do we wish the Court to recommend to governments that section 293 and other laws be modified?
I suggest that all citizens, young and old, polyamorists and monogamists, need to become keenly interested in the answers to those questions and so take whatever actions they find are necessary to ensure that those questions are addressed and fully answered during the trial. Attitudes, both for and against, need to be expressed.
May I suggest that polyamorists focus their efforts by supporting the Canadian Polyamory Advocacy Association. Contact to CPAA may be made at http://polyadvocacy.ca/contacts. Pass the word.
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11:20 am December 9, 2010
| jbash
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Post edited 7:23 pm – December 9, 2010 by jbash
Robert Horton said:
In this trial one of our freedoms hinges upon how the Court interprets the use of the term marriage as used in the Criminal Code.
Actually, the word "marriage" only appears in Section 293 in the context of excluding de jure marriage from consideration. What's forbidden is
"any form of polygamy, or any kind of conjugal union with more than one person at the same time, whether or not it is by law recognized as a binding form of marriage".
Neither "polygamy" nor "conjugal union" is further defined.
It's also clear that not all multiple sexual relationships are criminalized. It's very well established that sleeping around, adultery, and indeed group sex are legal in Canada. The issue is conjugality, not sexuality. Basically what's being criminalized is forming a family, what you call "de facto" marriage.
There's some wrangling over what elements are necessary to produce that marriage-like arrangement, basically over the definitions of "polygamy" and "conjugal union".
The AG of Canada is arguing that some kind of formal ceremony or act of adoption is necessary for "polygamy", because "polygamy" is a form of what you call "de facto marriage", and without a ceremony it's not enough like getting married. I can't quite figure out their answer for why that applies for the part about "conjugal union"; there have always been informal conjugal unions.
The AG of BC, on the other hand, argues that simply living together and acting like a family is sufficient to create one or the other… but only if it's one male with multiple females. They say that's because of the 1890 legislators would only have been thinking of that form of "polygamy". Again I can't quite figure out what they think the "conjugal union" part means; apparently they think that legislators in 1890 didn't mean "person", rather than "woman", when they wrote "more than one person".
Some of the other interested parties are arguing that other elements are required, for instance the question 2 elements of "a minor, or occurred in a context of dependence, exploitation, abuse of authority, a gross imbalance of power, or undue influence". I think that's a tough sell, given that the statute doesn't mention those things at all and it's pretty hard to swallow the idea that the 1890 Parliament meant to require them. "Reading down" doesn't extend to "adding completely new subject matter".
The CPAA, the Amicus, and most of the parties on the anti-293 side are arguing that 293 means what it says and intentionally criminalizes polyamorists living in family relationships.
As for what to replace it with, there are two parts: what the court should say and what the eventual outcome should be after the political process has played out. We have to remember that Parliament can override the Charter if it decides to do so.
On the first question, the court isn't going to "recommend" anything. The court will issue an opinion on whether section 293 is valid under the Charter, and on what the text actually means. That's just a technical opinion, not a recommendation for change, although the judge may of course choose to comment on what other sorts of laws might or might not pass constitutional muster. The decision is a matter of existing law, not of what "we" prefer. I think it's pretty clear that section 293 as it stands is unsalvageably unconstitutional and should just be struck down outright. That's the position the CPAA has taken in court.
As for the more general, political part, my personal position, which I hope we will eventually find to be the community consensus position and thus the CPAA position, is that there should be no "polygamy law" whatsoever. It may be acceptable to outlaw certain abuses in marriage, but such laws should apply equally to monogamy and shouldn't mention the number of people involved in the relationship.
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11:21 am February 9, 2012
| mcmartin
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Post Awaiting Approval by Forum Administrator
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