Possible draft position statement | Patriarchal polygyny, isolated communities, religious excesses, etc. | Forum


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Possible draft position statement

UserPost

7:14 am
April 30, 2010


jbash

Admin

Post edited 1:25 pm – May 7, 2010 by jbash


Here, for discussion, is one of the suggestions that have been made for the CPAA's basic policy position.

THIS IS NOT ADOPTED POLICY. In fact, many CPAA members and volunteers have not seen it. We are also unsure, so far, of the factual basis for some of what it says. It's here to stimulate community input. Is it on the right track? If so, what should be changed? If not, where should we go?

Position on Patriarchal Polygyny

Patriarchal polygyny is probably associated with certain harms to women and children. We attribute these harms to patriarchy mediated through polygyny, rather than to polygyny itself. Certain isolated communities are at special risk and should receive special services.

We use the phrase “patriarchal polygyny” to refer to multiple-partner conjugal relationships wherein:

  1. The participants see it as appropriate for men as a class, or for some subgroup of men, to have multiple female conjugal partners, but not for any woman to have multiple male conjugal partners, and/or
     

  2. The participants believe that men and women should adhere, within their relationships, to preset gender roles, with women's roles usually subordinate to men's roles.
     

Polyamory in all current definitions requires the knowledge and consent of all involved. Patriarchal polygyny without valid consent is not polyamory. However, any patriarchal polygyny with valid consent may be a form of polyamory, depending on the outcome of our consultation on the definition of polyamory.

Patriarchal polygyny has historically been the most common form of multiple partner conjugal relationship throughout the world, and remains so today. Whether patriarchal polygyny is more common than egalitarian polyamory in modern Canada is not known.

In the same way, patriarchal monogamy has historically been the dominant form of monogamy throughout the world, and remains so in many parts of the world. The idea that husband and wife should be fundamentally equal in all spheres of life is relatively new, and is by no means universally accepted by monogamists.

Patriarchal polygyny is, by its definition, a patriarchal phenomenon, and is generally associated with patriarchal cultures, values, and practices. These typically include a limited role for women in the public sphere, and a perception that men should head households, women in those households being under the men's authority. The scope given to women's freedom of choice is generally less than that given to men. Women may be infantilized. Their reproductive choices may be limited, and they may be effectively denied access to contraception or choices about when to use it. In extreme cases, women may be denied nearly all choices, excluded from most or all public activity, stripped of most or all recourse to authority beyond that of their male “protectors”, subjected to corporal punishment at the discretion of their husbands or fathers, or even treated fundamentally as if they were items of property.

All of these values and abuses have historically been common in monogamy as well as in polygyny; the liberation of monogamy from oppressive patriarchal norms has been fairly recent in historical terms, and is by no means universal on this planet. Patriarchal monogamy exists in Canada today.

Social science research associates patriarchal polygyny, particularly when practised in the context of generally patriarchal cultures, with a variety of negative material, emotional, and perhaps spiritual outcomes, for the women involved, for the children raised in these environments, and indeed for many men. Although methodological concerns exist, and although many of the studies involve cultures very different from Canadian culture, the phenomena appear to have some basis in fact.

Not all of the mechanisms by which these negative outcomes come about are clear from the research. Based on our experience with egalitarian polyamory, the CPAA is of the opinion that the negative outcomes of patriarchal polygyny are in fact caused by the “patriarchal” aspect, rather than by the “polygamy” aspect. In particular:

  1. Patriarchal structures can force women into unsuitable arrangements, including polygamous ones.
     

    Although practitioners of egalitarian polyamory are happy without conjugal exclusivity, the CPAA recognizes that we are a minority, having an unusual emotional makeup and/or unusual strategies for managing our emotions and relationships. Most people in fact prefer exclusivity, and many or most are miserable without it. Forcing such a person into a polygamous marriage may not be dissimilar to forcing a heterosexual person into a homosexual marriage.

    In patriarchal cultures which deprive women of choices, women who are personally unsuited to multi-partner relationships, again the majority of women, can easily be forced or manipulated into those relationships against their will.

    For example, in a highly patriarchal culture, a wife may have no realistic alternative to acceding to her husband's plan to take another. Particularly if there has been a breakdown in their relationship or if he considers women's opinions beneath his notice, her husband himself may give little or no consideration to her feelings. Even if divorce is technically available to her (whether independently or “granted” by her husband), exercising that option may subject her to social ostracism, may impoverish her, or may deprive her of access to her children or to others who are important to her. She herself may have internalized values which would make seeking a divorce unacceptable to her. Indeed, in a sufficiently patriarchal society, a woman may prefer being an unhappy plural wife to being an ostracized and impoverished divorced woman, and may actively petition her husband to take a second wife in preference to divorcing her.

    Similarly, in a highly patriarchal culture, a young woman being asked to join an arranged marriage, whether monogamous or polygamous, may have few realistic choices. She may lack the social or economic support which would enable her to defy, or even to question, the wishes of her parents or of the community. She may lack skills and education to provide for herself, and independent economic opportunities may in any case be unavailable to women in her circumstances. She, too, may have internalized values which would make resistance unthinkable.

    Being forced into unsuitable relationships will predictably have negative consequences. While it is clear that polygamous relationships are unsuitable for many people, this is equally true of many other things, including many monogamous relationships. Free adults are capable of choosing appropriate relationships for themselves. Patriarchal structures which permit women to be manipulated and coerced, or which deprive them of viable alternatives, are the root cause of this problem.

  2. Patriarchal structures can promote poor marital relations. The man in a patriarchal relationship may be culturally encouraged to behave autocratically, to ignore the wishes of women, and possibly to treat women simply as breeding stock, or as objects or trophies to be collected. Such bad behaviour contributes to marital strife and estrangement. A man conditioned to treat women as property may react to estrangement by acquiring a second wife, rather than by divorce, just as a man who finds his car uncomfortable may acquire a second. This may result in an excess of polygynous relationships among those with marital problems in such cultures.
     

  3. Some patriarchal cultures treat men as “breadwinners”, discouraging some or all women from acquiring or exercising marketable skills, or paying women poorly for their work. If acting as sole support for several wives and their children, most men will find it difficult to maintain a standard of living above the poverty level.
     

  4. Cultures which strongly value polygyny, but not polyandry, implicitly result in competition among men for limited available women, and possibly in populations of disaffected men who have lost this competition. Although multiple-partner relationships of any kind are sufficiently rare in Canada to render this an insignificant effect for Canada as a whole, there is evidence that it is significant in isolated communities practising patriarchal polygyny. The effect is particularly severe because young men forced out of these communities by this competition may lack the cultural and social background required to integrate well into outside Canadian society.
     

Recommendations

  1. Higher levels of government should undertake special oversight of local governments in isolated, at-risk communities espousing strongly patriarchal values, in order to ensure that women's rights under Canadian law are properly respected in those communities.
     

  2. Governments should make special efforts to provide outreach to women and girls in isolated patriarchal communities, emphasizing clear explanation of their legal rights and exposure to the diversity of values present in Canadian society. This should not include direct attacks on community values or ways of life.
     

  3. Services should be provided for people, and especially for minors, who are seeking to escape social pressure to enter inappropriate relationships. Special emphasis should be given to minors in isolated communities. These services should include material support, medical and psychological services, legal assistance including assistance in emancipation or changes of guardianship, and assistance in reintegration in more appropriate community settings.
     

Counterproductive Strategies

Attempting to challenge patriarchal cultures directly is likely to result in resistance from all members of those cultures, including women and children at risk. This resistance may take the form of hardening of personal attitudes, increased insularity, and group cooperation to reject or counter the attack.

Legal sanctions which directly address culturally valued practices represent an extreme form of attack, and should be avoided whenever possible. When used, they must be crafted with great care. In addition to the need to respect freedom of conscience, freedom of religion, personal autonomy, cultural diversity, and the fundamental equality of monogamous and polyamorous relationships, there is a high probability of creating very strong backlash. In an insular and cohesive community, it may be impossible to enforce even a reasonable law which runs against the strongly held convictions of community members.

Patriarchal communities may specifically be likely to reject direct approaches to women or children.

Any strategy which criminalizes potential victims or moderating forces is especially unwise. In particular, Section 293 of the Criminal Code provides for criminal penalties for all participants in polygamous marriages, including those who may have participated under overwhelming social and cultural pressure, or who may now regret their former choices. Indeed, anyone who has participated in a ceremony celebrating such a marriage is criminalized.

This makes it more difficult for polygamists, including women abused in patriarchal polygamy, to change their circumstances. They may see a patriarchal polygamist community as their only protection against prosecution, and find it unthinkable to leave. As officially recognized criminals, they will certainly be hesitant to seek outside help. In addition, people abused in, or simply beginning to question their place in, patriarchal polygynous communities may be unwilling to seek outside help because of the risk of bringing prosecution on other community members.

11:29 am
May 18, 2010


Elaine Miller

New Member

At first blush, this seems well-put together and coherent. Thanks!

11:53 am
June 1, 2010


Sokpuppette

New Member

Too soft on religious abuse? Cultists brainwash these girls. Might have to offend somebody.

Religion must not be used to manipulate girls, women, or anyone, into sexual or marital relationships. Preaching that God requires sexual or marital obedience, claiming that those who do not comply with one's desires will go to Hell, and enticing the naive with promises of spiritual power attained through sexual means, are all abusive forms of manipulation.

Recommendation

The law should assume that any sexual or marital consent based on promises or threats of spiritual effects or effects in the afterlife result from undue influence, and the person exercising that influence should be punished.

 

Using a pseudonym cause this could get hot.

7:57 am
July 10, 2010


Kimmie

Member

Quoted from above:

"However, any patriarchal polygyny with valid consent may be a form of
polyamory, depending on the outcome of our consultation on the
definition of polyamory."

 

Personally, I don't think that patriarchal polygyny could be a form of polyamory, because the woman, from what I understand, doesn't get a say when another woman is brought in to the family unit. Polyamory is, for most that practice it, about equality in gender as well as in the relationship, and if a woman's place is subserviant to a man's, that equality cannot exist.

9:03 am
July 16, 2010


jbash

Admin

Kimmie said:

Personally, I don't think that patriarchal polygyny could be a form of polyamory, because the woman, from what I understand, doesn't get a say when another woman is brought in to the family unit.


 

That depends on the patriarchal system and the people involved in the situation. In the original Mormon doctrine as theoretically adopted by the FLDS, an existing wife must consent to a man's bringing in a new wife.  I don't believe that most forms of polygynist Muslim doctrine have such a requirement; there, it's officially just the man's decision. I assume that other patriarchal polygynist traditions are split on the issue.

On the other hand, it's very easy to find presumably knowledgeable people who say that the FLDS as an institution doesn't enforce the requirement for women's consent in any meaningful way, and that many FLDS members apply overwhelming pressure to existing wives to accept new wives against their will. Similarly, it's not hard to find Muslim institutions and social groups that seem to put a lot of pressure on men to have existing wives' consent before taking new wives, and might heavily penalize a man who didn't. You can also find Muslim polygynist men who apparently did in fact give existing wives vetoes over new ones. And if you look at places like sisterwives, you can certainly find "independent" patriarchal polygynists who say they consider existing wives' consent a prerequisite for any new marriage, and who seem to live by that.

So there's diversity among the patriarchals on the issue of who consents to what. And you could even make an argument that consenting to enter into the system in the first place is valid consent to what happens afterwards, although I'm not personally comfortable with such a view.

So, I don't think we can easily claim that valid consent to patriarchal polygyny isn't possible.

9:38 am
July 16, 2010


jbash

Admin

jbash said:

And if you look at places like sisterwives, you can certainly find "independent" patriarchal polygynists who say they consider existing wives' consent a prerequisite for any new marriage, and who seem to live by that.


 

Come to think of it, even there I'm not sure I'm giving them full credit. Some of them really seem to want the existing wives' active desire, not just their consent.

Also, I guess as long as I'm summarizing what I've learned about the patriarchal world, I should mention that sometimes a new wife apparently isn't actually joining a "family unit". There are patriarchal structures in which there are multiple largely independent households (same for polyamory, actually). So an existing wife may lose attention from her husband, but the relationship the women are expected to have, and how closely they're expected to live with one another, is variable.

Ah, replying to myself… :-)

11:45 pm
August 26, 2010


cchanteuse

Guest

Just as a note on the consent though, in the FLDS, it appears the preaching is (something like) that the men must have lots of wives to get into higher levels of heaven.  It then becomes the women's duty to marry and have children to be brought into the church and enable the men to attain heaven with them.  Women are certainly trained into the system of belief to then obey decisions of the prophet and men that they should now marry certain men because of the prophet's visions, etc.  Consent is given but the nature of the consent seems to be based on a very different belief system and a lot of coercive religious beliefs/pronouncements/threats, etc.  

 

As filed by the AG, Muslim belief does not hold that there is any particular heavenly benefit to a Muslim man who marries more than one woman.  This seems much more innocuous to me, though I don't think that the wife's consent is needed.  On the other hand, in some Muslim countries women can divorce their husband's and if she has entered into an appropriate contract, which gives her an exit strategy, she might have effective control over whether she stays if he chooses to marry another. (Egypt eg.)

 

C

3:06 pm
August 27, 2010


Ivo

Guest
A few comments, Jbash.  I'm assuming that you are proposing using the long version (first post), so I will comment on that whole thing.  I also assume that you are proposing its use in some kind of public manner, including media and public consumption, which is guiding my comments.
  1. This is very elaborate, great job
  2. With the many comparisons given between patriarchal monogamy and patriarchal polygamy, one could get the impression that we may be insinuating that patriarchal polygamy and related abuses are okay because they are generally accepted in monogamy.  I know that's not your intention, but from the viewpoint of a monogamous person it could easily be read that way, and in a few places it read that way to me.  It may help to deliberately intersperse some reminders distancing us from patriarchal non-monogamy.
  3. "Based on our experience with egalitarian polyamory, the CPAA is of the opinion that the negative outcomes of patriarchal polygyny are in fact caused by the “patriarchal” aspect, rather than by the “polygamy” aspect."  This sentence is a key turning point. Can we make it more abundantly clear that the points that follow are meant to substantiate that opinion?  Just a stronger segue to the next part.
  4. Point 1 is very wordy and includes a lot of speculative situations.  It might be more effective to summarize to a few solid points with fewer examples.
  5. I've been mulling over the title of Point 1.  I'm not happy with it, but you can see where I'm going with my revision, namely: "Patriarchal structures can force women into a variety of situations unsuitable to the individual women; polygamy is one example of an effect of this, but not a cause."  It think we're trying to re-frame polygamy, from itself causing harm, to being one of many possible undesirable outcomes of patriarchal control, also possibly the most visible outcome.  I believe we should expose this error in causation, since it is really key to the problem of conflating the harms of partriarchy with polygamy.
  6. Thanks for making Point 4, it plays very well into the argument I read recently (by the AG?) that the math of polygamy (polygyny, actually) logically leads to disastrous imbalances that must be avoided at all costs.  My hyperbole, sorry.  I think you said "insignificant" when you meant "significant".
  7. What is the purpose of the "Recommendations" and "Counterproductive Strategies" sections?  They're well thought out, but I imagine that an outside party reading this might assume that we deem ourselves qualified to advise the government, and also are mounting an organized offensive strategy to take down polygamous communities, which we are not.  I wonder to what degree we might keep these to ourselves and stick to stating our position only.  That said, you make what I think are some very useful suggestions that shouldn't just be vaulted away.
Great work.  We're lucky to have your verbal and logical skill — and commitment to the cause.
@Kimmie 
You make the point that polyamory isn't polyamory when gender equality is compromised.  What you're saying feels right to me, and that stipulation is convenient in the context of distancing ourselves from patriarchal aspects as we are here.  But there may be times, some quite reasonable, when polyamorous relationships aren't really gender equal, and/or an arrangement includes some degree of one-sided control, temporary or otherwise, accidental or deliberate, consensual or situational.  Polyamory may have to be defined with neutrality on the issue of control, even though the general practice of it is egalitarian.  A third way may be to continue to officially dispute that aspect, which lets us have it both ways while the subject is hot.  Just a thought.

A few comments, Jbash.  I'm assuming that you are proposing using the long version (first post), so I will comment on that whole thing.  I also assume that you are proposing its use in some kind of public manner, including media and public consumption, which is guiding my comments.
1) This is very elaborate, great job2) With the many comparisons given between patriarchal monogamy and patriarchal polygamy, one could get the impression that we may be insinuating that patriarchal polygamy and related abuses are okay because they are generally accepted in monogamy.  I know that's not your intention, but from the viewpoint of a monogamous person it could easily be read that way, and in a few places it read that way to me.  It may help to deliberately intersperse some reminders distancing us from patriarchal non-monogamy.3) "Based on our experience with egalitarian polyamory, the CPAA is of the opinion that the negative outcomes of patriarchal polygyny are in fact caused by the “patriarchal” aspect, rather than by the “polygamy” aspect."  This sentence is a key turning point. Can we make it more abundantly clear that the points that follow are meant to substantiate that opinion?  Just a stronger segue to the next part.4) Point 1 is very wordy and includes a lot of speculative situations.  It might be more effective to summarize to a few solid points with fewer examples.5) I've been mulling over the title of Point 1.  I'm not happy with it, but you can see where I'm going with my revision, namely: "Patriarchal structures can force women into a variety of situations unsuitable to the individual women; polygamy is one example of an effect of this, but not a cause."  It think we're trying to re-frame polygamy, from itself causing harm, to being one of many possible undesirable outcomes of patriarchal control, also possibly the most visible outcome.  I believe we should expose this error in causation, since it is really key to the problem of conflating the harms of partriarchy with polygamy.6) Thanks for making Point 4, it plays very well into the argument I read recently (by the AG?) that the math of polygamy (polygyny, actually) logically leads to disastrous imbalances that must be avoided at all costs.  My hyperbole, sorry.  I think you said "insignificant" when you meant "significant".7) What is the purpose of the "Recommendations" and "Counterproductive Strategies" sections?  They're well thought out, but I imagine that an outside party reading this might assume that we deem ourselves qualified to advise the government, and also are mounting an organized offensive strategy to take down polygamous communities, which we are not.  I wonder to what degree we might keep these to ourselves and stick to stating our position only.  That said, you make what I think are some very useful suggestions that shouldn't just be vaulted away.
Great work.  We're lucky to have your verbal and logical skill — and commitment to the cause.
@Kimmie You make the point that polyamory isn't polyamory when gender equality is compromised.  What you're saying feels right to me, and that stipulation is convenient in the context of distancing ourselves from patriarchal aspects as we are here.  But there may be times, some quite reasonable, when polyamorous relationships aren't really gender equal, and/or an arrangement includes some degree of one-sided control, temporary or otherwise, accidental or deliberate, consensual or situational.  Polyamory may have to be defined with neutrality on the issue of control, even though the general practice of it is egalitarian.  A third way may be to continue to officially dispute that aspect, which lets us have it both ways while the subject is hot.  Just a thought.

3:09 pm
August 27, 2010


Ivo

Guest

(Not sure why there are two copies of my post.  I actually posted twice and got an error after the first, but I'm surprised that they're combined into one.  Maybe it can be edited; I'll try.)

7:37 pm
August 27, 2010


jbash

Admin

In case it's not blindingly obvious, everything in this post is personal opinion. Although these views will obviously inform the next suggestion I post, only time will tell whether the CPAA's community actually likes that suggestion, or does something completely different. And anybody who wants to is, of course, welcome to post competing suggestions.

cchanteuse said:

Women are certainly trained into the system of belief to then obey decisions of the prophet and men that they should now marry certain men because of the prophet's visions, etc. Consent is given but the nature of the consent seems to be based on a very different belief system and a lot of coercive religious beliefs/pronouncements/threats, etc.

Yes, I think that's a fair characterization… although some people wouldn't call that "consent".

As I understand it, it's not even just that the FLDS believe it's the woman's duty to help the man get into heaven. She is taught that her own entrance into the highest levels is dependent both on her husband's getting in, and on both God and her husband deciding that she's worthy. I'm not sure on the fine points, but I suspect the prophet has some influence there too. She believes that these men personally hold the key to her success in the afterlife, and that she must please them as well as supporting them.

Oh, and by the way, because the FLDS and similar groups, at least the "upper echelons", tend to live in isolated communities, the men in question may also control her physical environment, her economic options, and her access to everybody she knows and loves, including her children.

A girl raised from birth in an isolated enclave, where every single person reinforces those beliefs and follows the same almost omnipotent leaders, would have to be an awfully strong person to cross those men or challenge that belief.

In the initial suggestion, I was unwilling to take the indoctrination aspect on too directly, because religion is such a political hot button. I now think that we do need to address it, but still with a light hand.

After all, almost all religions expect you to act in certain ways because an authority tells you it's what God wants (or something equivalent). We don't want to attack religion in general. First, religion in general doesn't create that kind of extreme coercive environment, and doesn't deserve to be painted with it. Second, the poly community includes lots of religious people, and would never support trashing religion. Third, it would be political suicide. Nonetheless,  I'm not sure how we make our point without highlighting the connection between forcing women into polygyny and other things some religions have been known do… like pushing women into monogamy, or whatever. Once you've done that, it seems hard to draw a bright line. There are criteria in psychology, but they seem too soft to apply in public policy. Psychologists don't have to worry so much about the justice of their judgements.

If anybody has a good approach to this, I'm all ears. The only thing I do know for sure is that that it would be just as wrong to use that kind of pressure to force a girl into monogamy as to force her into polygyny… and I'm sure it's been done many times.

One way or another, I'll try to produce another draft that does it better, and also takes the other comments in the thread into account.

As filed by the AG, Muslim belief does not hold that there is any particular heavenly benefit to a Muslim man who marries more than one woman.

I believe that's correct. He gets no heavenly honor from marrying multiple women. In fact, marrying multiple women has only downsides for him spiritually, because he does get dishonor if he doesn't treat all his wives fairly, and the standards of fairness involved are quite strict. There are some verses that seem to be pretty skeptical about most men having a chance of pulling it off.

I think "Islamic" polygyny is much more traditional and cultural, and much less religious, than FLDS polygyny. In a way, it's not really Islamic at all; it seems fairly similar to traditional polygyny that goes on in places with non-Islamic religions. All Islam as a religion does is to allow it, and that somewhat grudgingly in most cases. There are majority Islamic countries where the civil law completely forbids polygyny, and others where it's heavily restricted, and most people there seem to think that's OK.

I'm beginning to think of "Islamic" polygyny as part of a first wave of patriarchal polygyny, something you find in cultures that inherited polygyny from the distant past, and simply never adopted the norm of monogamy in the first place.

In contrast, the FLDS and similar groups could be thought of as a "second wave", at most rhetorically related to the first, and much more invested in the practice of polygyny for its own sake. Mormons actually adopted polygyny against a prevailing monogamous norm, because of a "prophetic revelation". Obviously that would have generated a lot of conflict that would have tended to harden attitudes. And then the fundamentalists actually split from the mainstream Mormon church over the issue… meaning that they were founded by absolute hard-liners who I suspect had little patience for dissent. And they live in relatively isolated communities… small subcultures with prophets who're supposed to speak the word of God. Lots of ways that can go wrong.

… but I'm not sure that insight is all that valuable for these drafts, even if it's true.

This seems much more innocuous to me, though I don't think that the wife's consent is needed.

I think that's true in general, although some legal systems based on Islamic law may require the wife's consent. Apparently some (most?) Islamic legal systems do permit an earlier wife to forbid the husband, by contract at the time of initial marriage, from taking a second wife, but in those systems she's out of luck if she doesn't write that in from the beginning. From a cultural standpoint, a lot of the women aren't going to have the leverage or the sophistication to negotiate such a contract… and how many mongamous people in Canada do pre-nups?

On the other hand, in some Muslim countries women can divorce their husband's and if she has entered into an appropriate contract, which gives her an exit strategy, she might have effective control over whether she stays if he chooses to marry another. (Egypt eg.)

True, but divorce, although technically available, is often not an economically or socially viable option. She can do it, but she may not be very welcome in her community afterwards, and if she wasn't rich going into the marriage, she may find it hard to support herself. In fact, that may have a lot to do with Al-Krenawi's finding that polygynous families tend to be poorer, since he didn't look into the question of divorce as an alternative. Of course, you can say that about a woman seeking a divorce in a highly patriarchal monogamous culture, too…


 

7:53 pm
August 27, 2010


jbash

Admin

 

Ivo said:

I also assume that you are proposing its use in some kind of public manner, including media and public consumption, which is guiding my comments.
Once we come up with final versions and formally adopt them, these policy statements are meant to be the CPAA's "platform".
They are indeed for public use, at least in that we'll put them on the Web site and show them to anybody who wants to see them. And of course this consultation is itself public. However, I'd expect these detailed statements to be of interest mostly to people who were already deeply interested in the issues. They're definitely not FAQs or introductory documents. In fact, they presuppose that the reader knows quite a bit about the issues. I wouldn't expect most members of the public, or even most reporters, to have the background to follow all the nuances, at least not without a great deal of careful thought.
The reason for creating them, and I think the most important use of them, is to give the CPAA a clearly defined and coherent idea of its own policies; to tell ourselves what we're trying to achieve. That's why we're consulting the larger poly community on them; we want a genuine mandate to represent that community.
The finished statements will be sources the CPAA can refer to when writing simpler and more audience-appropriate statements for general consumption. The CPAA will probably also refer to these in deciding what approaches to take in court and in the larger public policy arena. We may also use them to communicate our position to other "specialists" in these issues, who will want detail and subtle distinctions.
I'll respond to the rest of your comments in another post, since my responses to them will be mostly personal opinion.

 

9:16 pm
August 27, 2010


jbash

Admin

Personal opinions in this one.

Thanks for the detailed comments, Ivo… it really helps to have stuff like this.

Ivo said:

I'm assuming that you are proposing using the long version (first post)
Um, yes, but as far as I know that's the only version. What would be the "short version"?
[...]one could get the impression that we may be insinuating that patriarchal polygamy and related abuses are okay because they are generally accepted in monogamy. [...] It may help to deliberately intersperse some reminders distancing us from patriarchal non-monogamy.
Hmm. I never would have thought of those abuses as "generally accepted" in monogamy. They happen in monogamy, but I don't think monogamists in general think they're OK, any more than we think they're OK. It's true that I'm trying to force monogamy to take a hard look at itself, though…
I will try to fix it, although I may approach it with more of an emphasis on condemning the abuses, or patriarchy in geneal, rather than on attacking patriarchal polygyny specifically. I think our whole point is that the "polygyny" part of "patriarchal polygyny" is irrelevant, or at most a symptom of underlying abuses of the patriarchal flavor.
"Based on our experience with egalitarian polyamory, the CPAA is of the opinion that the negative outcomes of patriarchal polygyny are in fact caused by the “patriarchal” aspect, rather than by the “polygamy” aspect."  This sentence is a key turning point. Can we make it more abundantly clear that the points that follow are meant to substantiate that opinion?  Just a stronger segue to the next part.
Can you suggest how to do that better? For me, it's obvious from the outline form, and emphasized by the words "In particular". Possibly many people in the audience don't read as many outlines as I do…
Point 1 is very wordy and includes a lot of speculative situations.  It might be more effective to summarize to a few solid points with fewer examples.
They're meant to be speculative explanations for actually observed facts that have been brought up by anti-polygamy advocates. They're especially applicable to "traditional" patriarchal polygyny, partly because of the reticence to take on the religious aspect that I mentioned in my response to Carol a couple of posts ago, and partly because there's more social science research about that style than about the "Mormon" style.
What I was trying to do with that text was to explain why our opponents' "factual" claim that harms arise from polygamy per se, rather than from patriarchy mediated through polygamy, was unreasonable. Their style is often to say "look, somebody saw X harm associated with polygyny, so polygyny must have caused it". I'm trying to show that there are other causal structures that are equally consistent with their observations, and in fact that those other causal structures are more plausible than the ones they claim are "obvious implications". Speculation is OK there, because the fact that our speculative explanations are as good as theirs, and usually better, shows that their observations can't support their claims.
You're probably right that having that that material overreaches, though. It's uncomfortably long already, and in order to relate it more clearly to what it's supposed to be responding to, I'd have to make it much longer and much more technical. Maybe it belongs in a white paper, or maybe we don't even need to read it at all.
I've been mulling over the title of Point 1.  I'm not happy with it, but you can see where I'm going with my revision, namely: "Patriarchal structures can force women into a variety of situations unsuitable to the individual women; polygamy is one example of an effect of this, but not a cause."  It think we're trying to re-frame polygamy, from itself causing harm, to being one of many possible undesirable outcomes of patriarchal control, also possibly the most visible outcome.  I believe we should expose this error in causation, since it is really key to the problem of conflating the harms of partriarchy with polygamy.
Yeah, that's the whole point of the section. If I retain much of the section in my next suggested text, I'll try to fix that.

By the way, you caught me using the word "polygamy". I usually try to avoid that when writing for the CPAA, because it's a very problematic word for us. It has a clear meaning in the dictionary and the social sciences (and in section 293, too…): it means any situation in which one person is officially or functionally married to more than one other person. Under that "standard" meaning, the word "polygamy" includes both what many polyamorists do (or would like to do), and what patriarchal polygynists do (or would like to do). That makes it a very dry and value-free term. In fact, that's how I always read and used the word before coming to the CPAA.

However, to much of North America, including many members of the polyamorous community and of the CPAA, the word "polygamy" means something much less like "any marriage with multiple people", and much more like "the way they do things in the FLDS". Unsurprisingly, those people see the word very negatively.

Since there are at least two really divergent interpretations of the word, I try not to use it at all. I'll keep trying. :-)

Thanks for making Point 4 [...] I think you said "insignificant" when you meant "significant".

I don't think so. I do in fact mean to say that the effect is INsignificant for Canada as a whole (whereas it might very well be significant for, say, Bountiful). There just isn't that much polygyny in Canada. If there were, we'd be seeing the effect, and we're not.

What is the purpose of the "Recommendations" and "Counterproductive Strategies" sections?

They're advice to the government.

They're well thought out, but I imagine that an outside party reading this might assume that we deem ourselves qualified to advise the government

And they'd be right. We do and we are.

Seriously. We're a public policy advocacy organization. Influencing the government is part of what we do. It's in our constitution.

I suspect that what you're saying is that we shouldn't feel qualified to give that specific advice on that specific issue. Giving advice on how to address abuse in patriarchal polygyny is, after all, only vaguely related to polyamory. I share some unease there, but the reason all of the statements have policy recommendations is that, in politics, there seems to be a rule: if you say something won't work or is unacceptable,
you're supposed to have a better alternative. That's based on
fallacious reasoning, but it's a reality. So, if we're going to say
that the government should eliminate section 293, it would be very good (not absolutely necessary, but very good) for
us to have an answer for what we think should be done about
what goes on in, say, Bountiful. Remember that even if/when 293 gets struck down in court, Parliament could recreate it; they will need alternatives to doing that.

If we had absolutely no idea, we'd have to throw up our hands… but we do have at least some ideas, and I can pretty much guarantee that others are going to feel free to suggest much less useful courses of action based on no more expertise than we have.

That said, those recommendations probably are overstated; they kind of sound like we're absolutely sure they'll work, and of course nobody can be absolutely sure of such a thing.. How about changing them to recommendations to study those courses of action, or to suggestions for possible avenues of exploration?

I'd love to hear from other people on whether we should keep these or not, and/or on how we can tone them down. Or on better ideas.

and also are mounting an organized offensive strategy to take down polygamous communities, which we are not.

Hmm. Assuming we keep these at all (and I do understand your argument against doing so), I'm not sure how to avoid that impression if somebody's really inclined to take it that way. Probably softening them to "recommended for study" will help, but it's not going to solve the problem entirely. Do you have any other ideas? The good news is that I'm not sure it's all that damaging if people mistakenly think we're on the offensive there, as long as we haven't done anything to encourage that interpretation.

7:14 am
September 11, 2010


q

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Is it possible to get a revised version of this incorporating feedback to date? Overall this looks fabulous but there are some revisions I'd like to suggest – without having to guess what parts of what has already been said will be incorporated into final statements.

 

My frist impression of the original statement is that it's way too long and has too many things in it that are not really necessary. For example, the following statement is totally true but utterly unnecessary. In fact, it may be counter-productive because it almost suggests that we not only want to legalize polyamory other than patriarchal polygyny, but we should to criminalize patriarchy… or at least demonize it (the latter I don't mind personally but if dilutes our main attempt to legalize egalitarian polyamory).

 

"In the same way, patriarchal monogamy has historically been the dominant form of monogamy throughout the world, and remains so in many parts of the world. The idea that husband and wife should be fundamentally equal in all spheres of life is relatively new, and is by no means universally accepted by monogamists." 

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